Friday, November 28, 2008

A Lost Cause


India is a secular and democratic nation. At least that is what the founding fathers wanted it to be. Somewhere down the line, religion became too big an issue for it to be as secular as it should have been. But what the hell, we still are. It is a good thing, certainly something to be proud of. And I am .But then, every now and then, the secular image takes a beating, and a bad one. The history of India is checkered with incidents of riots sparked off for reasons, from mundane to macabre. I cannot quote statistics to back me up on this, but I guess it is the minorities who are usually at the receiving end, more so than the majority. I feel sorry for them. Genuinely. For I do not think that the systematic rape of a woman of the minority community, commencing with the invocation of Mahadev, does service to my religion. I was aghast when I learnt about Abhinav Bharat. I still do not see any rhyme or reason in their actions. If they plan to blow up the terror camps in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh or in India (if there are any), I am all for it. But I do not think bombing Muslim-populated areas would serve any true purpose, other than creating more soldiers for Jihad. What happened in Gujarat was atrocious indeed. I concur. I am not denying that it happened, and on a gruesome scale too. And now comes my bone of contention with the media, the liberals, the intellectuals, the human rights activists and the champions of secularism and democracy.

What greater hypocrisy can there be when anything even remotely associated with oppression of minorities by the Hindu masses makes news, but the Kashmiri Pundits, who have been actually deracinated, and killed by thousands, doesn’t nowadays . Does the sole responsibility of the media and the human rights activists is to act as a watch dog for the minorities alone? Does being in the majority automatically warrants of not being at the receiving end? Kashmiri Pandits, who ethnically, culturally and religiously as well, belong to Kashmir, are living like refugees in their own country. They are rotting in the refugee camps. Quite a few of them died of sun stroke as they were so accustomed to the cold climate of Kashmir that they could bear the heat of northern plains. But all this is too old and too stale, devoid of sensationalism and not TRP-worthy. Maybe it is because of the fact that the number of pundit votes generated won’t be enough to quench the thirst of the blood-thirsty bastards scavenging for votes, that they do not make an issue out of it. If only the pundits could have thrown family planning to the wind and produced at least a dozen kids per family!

“Those to whom evil is done do evil in return”, as said W H Auden. But how many of the Pandits took to terrorism in retaliation? As if this was not bad enough, the UN decided to give some crappy human rights award to Benazir Bhutto. What definition of human is the UN following these days? How does the Bhutto bitch get an award when she so clearly instigated the “ethnic-cleansing” of Kashmiris?

There is so much hue and cry over Kashmir. And how can I forget the recent Amarnath land row? Fuck the Kashmir issue. Kashmir be damned. I don’t give a rat’s ass whether we Indians ever get the land known as PoK back. If it were up to me, I would call truce and settle for the LoC as the International Border. But I do care about the Kashmiri Pandits. Because theirs is a truly lost cause. For a culture as old as the concept of Bharata Varsha and Sanatan Dharma, for my fellow Indians who are as integral a part of this nation and its culture as anyone can ever be, for them my heart weeps. Shame on us. They have been sidelined because they are not in numbers large enough to be on the election manifesto. They do not have enough representation on any level .I guess even the Hail-Hindutva-Hardliners have forgotten them. While they are bellowing over Ayodhya and Ram-Sethu Sundaram, why don’t they holler about the Pandits, and the other religious minorities, who have been the brunt of unbridled and systematic violence, the body of which is Pakistan and the ideological source, Islam. Oops! I said the unmentionable. My true colours are out. I am a venom-spewing, minority bashing, jingoistic, right winger! As if I give a damn.

The p-sec’s (thank you Krishna Aradhi, it is an awesome term), who usually are hoarse from crying out murder and foul, even when a brave man legitimately loses his life battling terrorists, why don’t you shed your tears for these poor souls as well ? On a side-note, I often wonder, whether those who suspect the authenticity of the encounter in which Mr. M C Sharma was martyred really think that we all have been hoodwinked, and in actuality, Mr. Sharma is alive, and somewhere in the Bahamas? I mean WTF! A man lost his life, how can that be fake ? Coming back to the p-sec’s , what do the mother-effing pseudo-secularist liberal assholes have to say ? What do the Teesta Setalvad’s and the Arundhati Roys have to say ? Where were the liberals,intellectuals,leaders,human right activists when there was an actual “ethnic” cleansing taking place ? I don’t think they will ever take a stand on this issue, because vociferating for the rights of an ethnically and religiously Hindu group would automatically make a right-winger out of them.

What happened to Kashmiri’s is now happening to the Bodo’s in Assam. They face a similar threat, and if the Bangladeshi plan pan’s out, we will have another Kashmir at our hand . But even that is not good enough. Because a) they are from the north-east , which is not deemed worthy of attention , b) they are Hindus practicing Brahma Dharma and c) Some jackasses want to bestow Indian citizenship upon the illegal immigrants to get some more votes. Why don’t these morons whore out their own mother’s and daughter’s instead? A more direct approach to grab votes. And it will work. Once again, no self respecting “truly” secular liberal would touch their issue with a ten foot pole. Alas, only saffronized to the hilt right-wingers can sympathize with their cause .

I am a Hindu, a proud one, and I leave no occasion to say it out loud. I am not proud of the fact that of lately, certain Hindu organizations , for the right or wrong reasons, have instigated violence against minorities. I am not proud of casteism, dowry system and a host of other crap like that, which is a part of it. But that is not the extent of Hinduism. That’s the flawed part. I am a proud Hindu because of its rich philosophy. Because it says “Sarva Dharma Sambhava” and “Vasudev Kutumbam” . There so many different schools of thought, from theistic, agnostic to even atheistic. I am proud of it because there has been no major Hindu evangelical movement, which indirectly lends weight to the Hindu principle of “Sarva Dharma Sambhava” . And I will never be ashamed of it. And a thousand curses and eternal damnation to those who try to belittle my culture and faith without even attempting to understand it.

I guess self-flagellation is a incredibly satisfying vocation. If I ever get a chance to go abroad, and hold an audience, I would make sure that I tell them what a hell hole India is , and how many atrocities are committed by the intolerant and chauvinistic Hindus on a daily basis . Boy oh boy, wouldn’t that win me a whole lot of brownie points !I would be the toast of the civilized society, if things worked out for me.

All I want to hear is a spade, being called a spade . I shall never ever proclaim what happened in Gujarat to be even remotely right or justified. But why did it happen ? Did the train burning incident was conjured up or state-sponsored as well. Why does being Hindu in India is not good enough for the English media and the liberals and secularists. BD made news, for the wrong reasons. It was right. They did something unimaginably evil. They raped a nun. But what about the bloody New Life Activists who had painted an extremely biased, inaccurate and evil picture of Hinduism through their pamphlets. Why don’t they face the heat? I know of quite a few politicians and social activists who are champions of secularism and defenders of minority rights. Are there any Muslim activists for Kashmiri pundits or Bodo’s ? This is a cheap shot, but what the hell, I am a right-winger now, aren’t I ? I would just like to know. I am not implying that there cannot be . Anyone know a name or two, do tell me . The same goes for conversions and shit. Are there any voices of reason who have come out openly against the destructive proselytizing, the one achieved through nefarious means.

I do not believe in chauvinism, linguistic parochialism, communalism, fundamentalism, communism and most of the other –isms. The one –ism I truly believe in is Indian-ism. Religion is secondary. But will I stay truly Indian, or will the farce going one in the name of God and Votes derail me , and leave me as a hollow Hindu, incensed and retributive ? I do not wish to say anything about what happened in Mumbai (26th November 2008). Enough has already been said and nothing has been done. But I would like to know if the red sacred thread worn around one’s wrist by Hindus is proof enough to elicit a response from a renowned journalist and TV-anchor, Rajdeep Sardesai, that they could be “Hindu” terrorists ? Was his train of thought anywhere close to the track ?

I often contemplate on the concept of secularism from an Indian perspective. And I realized this . There are those who are secular to such extreme lengths , that to garner votes/gain popularity among the liberals or to appease their altruistic cravings, will go to any length to appease the minorities. And then, there are the ones who would like dump them in the sea, or something equally horrible . And those are the only two kind who are heard or seen. I guess being neither here or there isn’t good enough to get heard. Isn’t a secular nation supposed to ensure that the rights of all different kinds are protected, but at the same time they are on the same footing . But not here, it’s either, “I will let you climb on my head, and piss” or “I will piss on you “ . And that pisses me off .

There are times when I wonder, whose side do I take, which path do I tread on? But there is none for me, no middle way as Buddha said. I am pro-India, but so are the right-wingers and left-wingers and the secularists, as they claim. They all have their own axes to grind, while the nation gets ground effectually. Meanwhile, all I wonder is, who cries for those are Hindu, and yet have suffered.

A documentary on Kashmiri Pandits

102 comments:

venkatesh said...

you dont know how am I feeling now...

Kislay said...

@Venkatesh
What happened dude ? Am I the cause of it ?

Vinod_Sharma said...

Kislay, the gloom that you feel is shared by most. But, such terrible incidents also help to shake many of us out sleep. Of course for the TV guys, it is just another story...and some of them will go to absurd lengths to display their inability to rise above their brand of petty politics, no matter how serious the development.

Let us hope something worthwhile comes out of this tragedy for India as a nation.

manju said...

Kislay, I agree with most of what you have written.

The less said about television commentators, the better. In their book 'secular' is a term to denote Hindu-bashers. Better to just ignore them.

Re: Kashmiri Hindus- The so-called secularists are now calling for a plebiscite to decide whether Kashmir wants to stay in India, be independent, or go to Pakistan.

Would it not have been been better to have had the plebiscite before all the Kashmiri Hindus were driven out of Kashmir so they coul have taken part in the voting?

Kislay said...

@Vinod Sharma
But what about the Pandits ? Theirs is still a lost cause, isn't it .

@Manju
Glad to know that .

Vinod_Sharma said...

Of course it is a cause, not to be forgotten.

Indian Home Maker said...

Kislay,as usual brilliantly put.
About Kashmiri Pandits - Absolutely. they bring no votes, they don't count.
I would never support Kashmir not being a part of India! Tomorrow Marathis and Malayalees will ask to be separate nations too! That will be the truest beginning of the end.

Abhinav Bharat and Batla House ... confuse me, just don't know what to believe ... we hear so much about he politicians and the Police nexus. I find it difficult to believe both.

I think Teesta Setalwad did a good job of exposing mob violence against any community. Don't you?

Those who are psuedo-secular (not very clear about he term but I guess it means those who pretend to be secular but aren't?) are not Secular! Government should keep out of all religions. let us mind our our own faiths and Gods.
I am VERY proud of 'Sarv Dhram Sambhav' and proud to be the very liberal and tolerant ... we'd kill each other, otherwise, not just Hindus and Muslims, also Marathis/Biharis, N.Indians/S.Indians, Upper caste/ dalits... we teach people to be tolerant and accommodating in our families, and then fight with our own countrymen!

Ref. Gujrat violence : Violence against innocent citizens- and worse not the same citizens but others of the same community is never justified Kislay, no matter how much nonsense their supporters (users) spew.

Even if there are no Muslim supporters for Bodos or Kashmiri Pandits, we can't start hating them all. I think the average muslim citizen cannot be blamed for Islamic terrorism. Just like an average Gujrati can't be blamed for Gujarat violence.

I think I am pro India... or pro Humanism. If it benefits India - should we support injustice to citizens of another nation?

Kislay said...

@IHM
I never said, never ever will , that Godhra was justified . And as far as my other question is concerned, I do want to know whether there are any sympathizers for KP's/Bodo's or not . I mean where are the muslim equivalents of Setalvad's and Roy's , to name two . Its more of a general question . The answer would not prove or disprove anything .

Kislay said...

@IHM
I am sorry I forgot to respond to your tag . I will do it soon enough .

sixtyfourarts said...

If only the pundits could have thrown family planning to the wind and produced at least a dozen kids per family!

:D

'Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitaha'

Ajit said...

brilliant post.....
"Pro India" and "Indianism".... now those are terms that I like.....
and that is something, the politicians should also start living up too......
as I have commented in IHM's blog earlier, it is time to put back the Secular in "Secular India"........

Kislay said...

@Ajit
Thank you . But can India ever be truly secular with Pandits displaced from their home ?

Ajit said...

no.. not secular enough.... I am not even sure that the Kashmir Pandits are ready to go back to their land after all this mess.

Krishna Aradhi said...

Dude, don't worry, you ain't a right-winger, you are just a "pro-Indian" realist. What you say has always been my problem too. I just can't digest the fact that Hindus are treated like third-class citizens in the only country in which they are in a majority. Therefore, even if I am an atheist, I side with the Hindus most of the time and get myself (unfairly) branded as a right-winger. It's just an occupational hazard, you learn to live with it.

Kislay said...

@Krishna
As if I would mind being a right-winger now . I would rather would be that than a Congress voting, p-sec, liberal , anyday . And you can be an atheist and still be a Hindu , because Hinduism has atheistic schools of thought as well . And most importantly , even if you don't want to go there , culturally and ethnically , you are still a Hindu . The word Hindu has much more meaning to it than the religion alone .

Krishna Aradhi said...

Yep, that's why I would prefer Hinduism anytime. However, it's being distorted beyond recognition by the ass-licking p-sec media. Notice how the Mumbai attacks are not being called "Islamic Terror", they are just called "Terror". These very morons were jumping up and down in glee when the Sadhvi was arrested based on unconvincing evidence.

Kislay said...

@Krishna
Exactly . Double standards . It is extremely pathetic that even the Indian media has its own political preferences, and they try their best to serve it . And I guess you must have heard of Gautum Adhikari , who called this attack the result of a diabolical conspiracy hatched by Hindutva Brigade and Mossad . Mother of all WTF's man . And pray tell me , what purpose did the lighting of candles serve . I bet the Paki's must be laughing their asses off at it . It made me even more miserable .

Smitha said...

Kislay, Brilliant Post. I totally agree with the points you made. Psuedo-secularism in our country is making things worse that they already are. It just distresses me when the powerful media displays it as well. If only we were secular in the way France is - where religion is strictly kept out of public life. Unfortunately minority appeasing and majoritt bashing has become politically correct in India..
By the way, if you have read Ramachandra Guha's book 'India after Gandhi' - it gives a clear picture how this happened in the years after independence..

Kislay said...

@Smitha
Thank you . I am just sick of it . And that book you mentioned is now on my reading list .

Krishna Aradhi said...

LOL! Are they really accusing Mossad of carrying out these attacks? I don't have access to these so-called news channels, so this is news to me. I wonder why Mossad will start killing its own people (Israelis did die in the Mumbai terror attacks). From what I know of them, they do quite the opposite - they avenge every Israeli death, quite unlike our lousy intelligence agencies.

Krishna Aradhi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kislay said...

Hell yeah . Just google it , and you'll get the real article .

manish said...

"Ref. Gujrat violence : Violence against innocent citizens- and worse not the same citizens but others of the same community is never justified Kislay, no matter how much nonsense their supporters (users) spew"

@IHM..no one is justifying gujarat violence.There is infact no need of that.Gujarat violence was need of the hour.I was disgusted seeing violence against one community but Shahi Imam's reaction "we want peace" proved its neccessity...Muslims asking for peace!!

P.S:I have absolutely no faith in any of the religions(in case you think I am a hindu extremist :-) )

Kislay said...

@Manish
I do not blame you for your loss of faith . But I still don't think any kind of rioting is the need of the need of the hour .

manish said...

@kislay...
even i am not a supporter of riots.no doubt innocents suffer the most.

bt then....gujarat & '84 riots taught them some very valuable lessons(if only they have learned)..keep your religion at home..there is a limit to tolerance

Yaamyn said...

@Kislay : WOnderful post. You have brought out the angst quite well. It's indeed time for some INDIANISM.

And about the Kashmir Pandits, it's indeed a shame on Kashmir that they were driven out of their homes.
Unfortunately, the media does tend to sensationalize even the pettiest of the current events (in Urban india of course) but they remain blind to history.. and it's continuing injustice on Refugee pandits among others.

One can blame the lack of 24 hours news channels back in the early 90s when the Pandits were chased out.. Perhaps then we'd have seen a blow by blow account live from the scene?

Yet, I doubt it. Even today, the media ignores the existence of the NOrth East.. and central India. It's alwyas Raj Thakeray or Mumbai on the news.

It's sick, but it's reality.

It's sad to see the absolute lack of a leadership that stands up for principles and justice.

Omar Abdullah has publicly made statements about the injustice faced by Pandits.. but I doubt even HE's going to do anything about it.

What's even more surprising is that the far right who's been looking for issues to riot over - and even blocked that Kashmir highway over the Jammu pilgrimage issue hasn't found it necessary to raise the Pandit's return home on a war footing.

@ Krishna Aradhi : Even if what you say about Hindus being treated like 'third class citizens' in the 'only country' where they are in majority holds true - It still doesn't justify support for parties that thrive on anti-Islam and anti-Christian rhetoric.

India's politics and bureaucracy are overwhelmingly - and disproportionately even - controlled by Hindus too. In case of any complaints, it should be these leaders who ought to face the heat - not the minorities.

In fact, i personally believe Muslims in India are in the deplorable state they are because they haven't produced ONE national leader of any caliber. They continue to be a vote bank and most 'muslim leaders' in the country are usually selected cuz of that very qualification - Muslim.
(This is similar to the caste considerations.. and the poll arithmetic that's totally based on religious and caste affiliations. SO much for secular India!)

In my opinion, all mention of religion or caste ought to be BANNED constitutionally. Any leader who caters to only one caste, or community or tribe cannot lead a country like India and has no business fighting elections.

Kislay said...

@Manish
I hope every one learned a lesson from it . But the lesson that the rights of the majority need to be safe guarded as well , is yet to be learnt by all .
@Yaamyn
I concur with some of what you say . But then , it is the the double standards I am talking about . The hypocrisy . The liberals perceive the BJP and its parent organizations as root of all evil . It can be called evil but not the root cause of it . You say that it is wrong to support parties which are clearly anti-muslim and anti-christian . But won't it be just as wrong to support a party which has been anti-Sikh , and is anti-Hindu ? In the end it is all about votes and power . But my problem is with the fact that the cries of some are heard , but the cries of the other are not . You say that Indian politics and bureaucracy is dis-proportionately controlled by Hindus . Well , there are 80 % of them , aren't they ? And the way our system works, I guess even Narendra Modi could not even stop a minority from getting into politics and bureaucracy ,in Gujarat . Bottom line here , I am sick and tired of all the Hindu - bashing , especially by those born as Hindus . And it is not just shameful for Kashmir , but India and the liberal and secular world as well that the Pandits were driven out of their very homes . I want the champions of democracy and religious rights to answer my questions . Where were they ? And what are they doing now ?

The Quirky Indian said...

Very interesting thoughts Kislay.

I just wish both the citizens and the government treat all religions - and so by extension, all citizens - in an even-handed manner. For example, I have noticed the media react more virulently to majority communalism than to minority communalism. My simple submission: treat every citizen as equal. More importantly, treat every law-breaker in the same manner. You know the old saying: everyone is equal before the law. If we can demonstrate that Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, politicians, dalits, brahmins, rich and poor, everyone - all are equal as far as the law is concerned, I think a lot of our problems will be solved. At least, I believe so.

Quirky Indian
http://quirkyindian.wordpress.com

Kislay said...

@Quirky Indian
Precisely . The same yard stick should be used for one and all . The same principles , the same law , the same civil code . But nothing of the sort is being done . And Hindu-bashing is pro-vogue these days , a prerequisite to get your secular/liberal credentials . As if every damn thing that is wrong is the handiwork of RSS/VHP/BJP etc .

Indian Home Maker said...

Kislay Did you watch the crowds in Peaceful Protests today all over India? Do you think it might spread to a other parts, everywhere and we might see a less divided, less communal India, the India, Gandhi and the creators of this brilliant Constitution dreamed of?

Kislay said...

@IHM
I did ,and I hope they did so to protest against the leaders of this nation . I am not trying to belittle the sentiments of those who took part , good move . But on the same note , peaceful protests like this won't affect the Pakistani elements who caused this . And a war cannot be fought by protests . And we are at war . I don't why but I have a feeling that Pakistan is going to get away again . I just hope I am wrong .

Yaamyn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yaamyn said...

@Kislay :

I would like to know what you specifically mean by 'Hindu-bashing'.

If you mean the much deserved criticism of the Hindu far-right, I would NOT call it 'hindu bashing' any more than criticizing LeT becomes 'Muslim bashing'.

Like you said, let's keep the yardsticks the same.

I completely agree with you that the Kashmiri Pandits aren't getting nearly the attention they deserve.. but the blame for it lies partly with the so called 'Hindu' groups too.

They hijack every issue in the country - but won't touch this one. Why?

Everything from Benny Hinn to the Teletubbies has become issues of 'National and Hindu importance'.

Why not causes that deserve ACTUAL attention? Like the North-South divide you mentioned.. the bihari bashing.. the 'chinkie' racism.. Rehabilitating Kashmiri pandits?

It's not just the liberals who are to blame.. and it's definitely not 'hindu bashing'.

And when I said 'disproportionate' representation in national leadership, I meant it.

Whenever I say minorities don't have adequate leadership representation, I get the same 'Sikh PM, Muslim President' retort.

That's not representation. ideally, since there are about 20% of minorities in the country, there ought to be a similar proportion of the country's leaders (hate to call them that!) from the minorities.

But then, it's again the fault of the minorities too.. that they don't have anyone to spark their imagination.

And No, reservation is NOT the way to go about it. Education is.

Keep up the good work. I loved the topics you brought up - so honestly too.

Kislay said...

@Yaamyn
The English media engages in Hindu bashing , indirectly . They never show both the sides of any story , do they ? And as I said , those "secular" people , who do raise hell for the rights for minorities , but don't do so for groups like Pandits or Bodo's , well, what is that ? India had a Hindu core , and still has one . Not any one's fault , right . It is the way it is . So if people raise the issue of preserving that core , those who speak against them are Hindu bashers . But I must also say , the BJP et al also are no angels . To defend one's culture and religion is right , but the method should be fair and straight . And thank you for frank and forthright . I appreciate the candour with which you raised these questions .

Kislay said...

Here are 2 fools , who in their love for "human rights" have been blinded .
1. Amrish Mishra - http://www.humanrightskerala.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6527&Itemid=5

2. Gautum Adhikari

They claim it was the "Hindu" terrorists who did it . "Hindu" terrorists , where are you ? Are you guys listening ?

manju said...

Re: double standards-

There is a report in today's Indian Express- Mumbai Newsline- that experts are calling for scientific tests like the narco-analysis to verify the truth of the lone survivor terrorist's statements.

Rakesh Maria.JCP (crime) has said that they will consider the use of such tests later.

Why such hesitation now, when there was none with regard to the Malegaon Blast accused?

Perhaps they do not want the truth to come out?

Kislay said...

@Manju
Perhaps , it would make a lot of people happy , if under the narco-test , Kasab says so " Fooled you all suckers . I am a Hindu , born and raised in India . The VHP brainwashed me . The RSS trained me . And I am the brain child of the BJP . Three cheers to Hindutva . Long live Hindu-Zionism " .

Vinod_Sharma said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Vinod_Sharma said...

LOL Kislay. Well said. Perhaps they should invent a new "Na-ruko" test to get exactly the same 'heartwarming' replies from all terrorists!

Then we will never have to blame Pakistan for anything and it will able to freely send terrorists by boats, ships, camels, trucks, trains etc, with three bags on their backs; one bag for ammunition and explosives, one bag for a 10 kg RDX bomb and a third bag full of candles for us to light after they complete their massacre of innocents!

Kislay said...

@Vinod Sharma
Good one Sir . The candle part was awesome . The could also bring a "bandh gala" as a token of affection for our ex-Home Minister .

Bones said...

I agree with you totally about the Kashmiri Pandits...I have friends who have had to leave their homes and nobody (by that I mean the government and the intellectuals) gives a shit about them...The govt. is only bothered about votes and therefore are always trying to appease the Muslims...Why is Haj subsidized by the state? Why don't Christians get subsidized tickets to go to Jerusalem or the Vatican? Because they are an extremely small percentage of our population and cannot make a dent in the elections...BTW, where is the great intellectual Arundhati Roy?

Kislay said...

@Bones
Hell Yeah ! You feel me . Thank you .

Indian Home Maker said...

Okay Kislay I think you should read this,


Islamic Terrorism

kalisho said...

Lets call a spade a spade.. whats happening IS indeed Islamic terrorism. The reason being this- Jihad is undeniably global now.. we will most probably gauge the true scale of this movement only much later on..

While I truly believe that Indian Muslims put their country before religion, I cannot say the same of certain other Muslims elsewhere, particularly in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Arab world, who are ideologically sufficiently hostile towards India/Hindus to make attacks like 26/11 possible.

Kislay said...

@Kalisho
There are certain people who are too obsessed with their religion to put their country first . And that is true for all , but more for some than the other .

kalisho said...

Well.. I guess you are be right...Though i wish you weren't Make that MOST Indian Muslims put their country before religion.

P.S- Forgot to say it before-this is an excellent post.

Kislay said...

@Kalisho
There are so many things I wish weren't true . And thank you .

kalisho said...

i have added a link to your blog on mine- http://kalisho.wordpress.com

I hope you don't mind:)'cause it took me quite a while to figure out how to do it!

Kislay said...

@Kalisho
I am honoured that you did that . Absolutely no problem .

1conoclast said...

What started out as noble intent, has petered into a sad discussion, with some fairly despicable comments from the likes of manish.

Kis...

The KP situation is a very sad situation, one that we should all make attempts to correct. Omar Abduallah says he wants it corrected; let's help him fix it. Let's give him ideas, support, funds, PR whatever he needs. Let's get off our haunches & make non-violent protest?
Let's NOT support those who propose violence as a solution to fix it.
Let's NOT confuse the KP issue with other issues. Otherwise we run the risk of strengthening pan-Hinduism/hindutva/"Hindu-ummah"!

I'm glad you're going to read Guha. He's GREAT!

I think you've read Nimmy's blog. I suggest you try www.anniezaidi.com.
You already read IHM, so you're doing most of the right things. May I ask you to refrain from being influenced by opinions & factoids that you encounter on some of the other blogs you visit. You have a keen mind & a sensitive heart. I'd rather it was put to non-violent, inclusive use, than indulge in/buy-into divisive thought. I think you get my drift.

There's a few thoughts on Yaamyn's 9/11 post that I left after you'd gone, that may be of interest to you. Please forgive the ultra-aggressive tone. It was in the heat of the moment. Passion as you call it. :-)

Regards & All the Best!

1conoclast said...

One question born out of curiousity primarily: Did this Kashmir tragedy have only Kashmiri Pandits suffering or Kashmiri non-Pandit Hindus as well?

Kislay said...

You have read my thoughts on it . I have nothing more to add . And just for the sake of my blood pressure and level of sanity , I wouldn't read your reply now . Maybe later , in a calmer and more rational state of mind .And yes , I have been guilty of being ultra-aggressive and very vitriolic as well .

"You already read IHM, so you're doing most of the right things. May I ask you to refrain from being influenced by opinions & factoids that you encounter on some of the other blogs you visit."

I would rather that I read all kinds . And reading one blog or the other is not about right or wrong . I don't live in the World of absolutes , or a black-and-white world .

"One question born out of curiousity primarily: Did this Kashmir tragedy have only Kashmiri Pandits suffering or Kashmiri non-Pandit Hindus as well?"

Why ask me ? You know a lot, don't you ? As far as I know , the Pandits have suffered the most . But this is not something new . It has been going for quite some time . And quite a few non-pandits converted their religion . But does that make their cause a less worthy one ?

Indian Home Maker said...

@ Manish //Gujarat violence was need of the hour.//
Do you really believe this? But why? What could possible make such violence a need?

//I was disgusted seeing violence against one community but Shahi Imam's reaction "we want peace" proved its neccessity...Muslims asking for peace!!//

Why shouldn't Muslims ask for peace?

//P.S:I have absolutely no faith in any of the religions(in case you think I am a hindu extremist :-) )//
I don't think perpetrators of violence have any religion, God, conscience or values.

Kislay said...

@IHM
"I don't think perpetrators of violence have any religion, God, conscience or values"

That is just a politically correct statement . Terrorists have religion , and a biased set of values . And some of them are very intelligent as well . The believe in God , in a manner very different and disturbing than you or I do .

1conoclast said...

Kis...

I ask you so that you can find the truth for yourself. You won't believe me even if I found out & told you; so it's best you research it on your own. And then tell me?

I repeat:
-Did Kashmir have only Pandit Hindus?
-Were only the Pandit Hindus targeted?
-If other Hindus were targeted as well, why is the problem referred to as a KP problem?
-Does the plight of other targeted Hindus (if this happened) deserve less attention?
-If so, why?

Anyone who cares to answer this set please.

Kislay said...

@1conoclast
Trying to change the subject . The KP problem is the problem where the original inhabitants of Kashmir were driven out of their homes , in recent times , by the Kashmiri Muslims . And this happened , most recently , during the 1990's . PERIOD !

Renu said...

great post and after my heart, always want to say the same, but never could express it so beautifully. I feel that se`cularism means..justice for all and apeasement to none, but in india secularism is defined as hindu bashing, very sad state of affairs indeed.

Kislay said...

@Renu
Thank you . The true meaning of the word secular has been long lost in India .

1conoclast said...

Kislay...

Not at all. Just digger deeper for the whole truth. You don't have to answer it. You just need to look for the truth.

Glaring Error in your factfile: Pandits weren't driven out by Kashmiri Muslims. They were driven out by pak sponsored militants. More Kashmiri Muslims lost their lives than Kashmiri Hindus during the militancy. These are facts. Anyone will corroborate them for you.

I implore you... don't listen to the right-wingers! They're poisoning your mind. They would give you facts, like I do, instead of lies, if they had your best interests at heart!

And Yaamyn is right in his comment above. It's hindutva bashing, not Hindu-bashing.
Gandhiji was a Hindu. We celebrate him! dogse & veneral disease savarkar were hindutvis. We spit on them! There IS a difference!!!

And the claim that the meaning of the word secular has been lost is a right-wing claim. If you can get a centred person to say it, I'll buy it. That's a separate discussion. One we can have as & when you desire.

Another few points that you may want to consider:

Some people are sending petitions to a spineless lizard like advani. As if that's going to help.
Can we not do what I recommend in my latest post?

Would you agree that unnecessary rhetoric around war is premature & the domain of the rightists? You may want to read this from Annie & bhupinder's comment on it!
I'm hoping it will appeal to the pacifist that wrote so passionately about Dr. Chandrashekhar Patil?

On our PM, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar had something to say about Leaders. He says that leaders should have Truthfulness, Equanimity, Farsightedness as attributes. He advocated Gandhiji's peaceful protest, while quoting from the Bhagwad Gita.
Dr. Singh has demonstrated all three of the attributes mentioned.
Now one can safely say that his being our leader was ordained by Divinity!
No wonder he's called a political saint!

Listen to non-right-wing people also. You'll develop a more well-rounded personality, more complete knowledge.

I'll end this with one appeal to the the young man in you:

Insaaf ke dagar pe,
Bachchon dikhao chal ke.
Yeh Desh hai tumhara,
Neta tumhee ho kal ke!

Insaaf
means Justice. Fairness.
If you have any interest in playing a part in nation building, then you must not forget the couplet above. You have to be fair & just. And that entails not hiding the truth, giving credit where it's due, even if it's the Congress that you dislike. Don't hide facts. Be fair & just. Build a nation that we can all be proud of! Not the nation 3 right-wing bloggers dream of!

Kislay said...

@1con
1. I am not a pacifist . I don't know what gave you the impression
2. You are wrong when you say that Kashmiri Muslims had nothing to do with what happened to the Pandits .
3. I have a brain , I can reason , I will draw conclusions from what I see and hear after duly processing them .
4. I do not approve of everything that Veer Savarkar did , yet I do not , will not ever spit on him .
5. Please don't spend so much of your time and energy trying to convince me of the difference between right and wrong . It won't change anything until and unless I see it on my own . Self - realization .

1conoclast said...

And I will happily accept 3 & 5 from that answer Kislay. :-)

I would like your views on this please.

1conoclast said...

On point # 2: Would you hold Maharashtrians as a group, responsible for what happened in Bombay a few months back? Or the mns?
Would you hold Gujarati Hindus as a group, responsible for what happened in 2002? Or the sangh parivar?

Just some fodder for point number 3.

manish said...

@IHM...One of your question has been perfectly answered by you.Of course, now its on you to agree or disagree :)..

Now your other 2 questions...
"Do you really believe this? But why? What could possible make such violence a need?"
Yes I do believe and that's why I wrote ;)
Need was there.To make them understand that if you attack on Hindus you wont get away.A jaw for an Eye!!.You kill one we will kill 100.And let me tell you.They have understood have well.That pig Shahi Imam's statement says everything

I agree many innocents were killed and tortured etc etc.But then it happens in all riots.if people could go and kill those bastards who burned coaches riots would have never happened.

manish said...

"Why shouldn't Muslims ask for peace?"
Have you ever stayed in a Muslim locality???If you have,you would have never asked this question.If they can kill based on religion why can't Hindus?Were not those carsevaks innocent?? I hope you would not say now ki those killers were from Pak.lol

manish said...

@1conoclast...
"Pandits weren't driven out by Kashmiri Muslims. They were driven out by pak sponsored militants." And who helped Pal sponsored militants.??
"More Kashmiri Muslims lost their lives than Kashmiri Hindus during the militancy."
Ya and that's why they are still there :D

"These are facts. Anyone will corroborate them for you." well every1 considers his opinion fact ;) Anyone??.Get me one person( he should be a muslim)

manish said...

"Gandhiji was a Hindu. We celebrate him! dogse & veneral disease savarkar were hindutvis. We spit on them!"

I know personally know many who spit on Gandhi!!

"And the claim that the meaning of the word secular has been lost is a right-wing claim."
I am a non-right-wing. And i completely agree with Kislay

manish said...

Insaaf kya sirf minorities ke liye hi hota hai yaar???

"Build a nation that we can all be proud of! Not the nation 3 right-wing bloggers dream of!"

should i tell ki 50 years mein congress ne country ki kya condition ki hai??SC sayas "Even god cant help this country".Now you will say they were pointing to Advani

Kislay said...

@1con
Quintessential you . Instead of admitting that the Muslims of Kashmir have had a hand in what happened to the Kashmiri Pandits , you had to redirect to it to the sins of the Hindu groups . Why is it so difficult to call a spade a spade . And yes , does anyone think that what happened in Maharashtra or Gujarat could have happened without some support of the people of those states , some if not all ? It is agreeable if I voice an opinion on injustices done to the minorities of India , but the moment I say Kashmiri Pandit , you and others like you start needling me , and poking holes . Why is that hard to call a spade , a spade ? Why is being politically correct more important than being correct . All kinds of atrocities have been committed on all kinds of people . But it seems that some are worthy of shedding light on , while some are definitely not .

1conoclast said...

Kislay,

1. Quintessential me, Yes.
2. Not because I am, as you say, redirecting it to so & so. But because I am giving you 2 analogies to consider.

You see I am not a misanthrope. I am a philanthrope. I believe, as I have said before, in the innate goodness of human beings. The blame has to squarely lie with those who mislead them.

And that is the point that I was trying to put forward. You are a seeker of the truth right? Then we need to look beyond what is told to us. Beyond the obvious. And dig deeper. Who was really responsible.

I agree with Omar Abduallah when he says that Kashmiri Muslims will only be able to wash away their sins when every Kashmiri Pandit is back home in the valley, rehabilitated in his home.

And I also agree with him when he says that it was pak-bred militants that were primarily responsible for causing the exodus. And that more Kashmiri Muslims died during the militancy than the KP's.

The blame for the KP problem should primarily lie on pak-bred militancy.
The blame for Bihari-UP problem in Bombay, Nasik etc. 2008 should primarily lie on thakre & the mns.
The blame for Gujarat 2002 should not lie on all of Hinduism, but on modi, the bjp, vhp etc.

I hope you get that analogy at least?

3. What would I achieve by redirecting the blame to the sins of Hindu groups? I am half-Hindu myself & have a few jansanghis among my very relatives! I reason with them the way I reason with you.
My stand is always issue based & truth based. I stood with you on the mns 2008 issue. Was I not speaking for Indian unity (and indirectly for Hindu unity) with you?

My purpose was only to give you analogies, so that you could judge better where the blame should apply!

4. One question that no one wants to answer is this: Why is the problem called a Kashmiri Pandit problem & not a Kashmiri Hindu problem? I know for a fact that there were non-Pandit Hindus in the valley. Hari Singh, Karan Singh etc.? All Hindus, right? Not pandits. So were only the pandits targeted? Or were other Hindus targeted, but their problems are not being brought to the fore? And if so, why not? I'm only looking for some answers.

5. I don't know about myself, but this quickness to judge, this jumping to conclusions, this classic misreading, may fast become Quintessential Kislay...

1conoclast said...

manish...

I've answered part of your question in my response to Kislay. My initial response too was directed at him. :-)

1. What is a Muslim? If you can answer that, I can probably provide you with a non-Muslim source.
Omar Abdullah's mother is English. His Wife is a Hindu. Is he a Muslim? What makes him one? His name? Does that make Salman Rushdie a Muslim too? Are Dharmendra & Hema Malini's 2 girls Muslim?

Waiting for your enlightened answer.

2. I know of creatures that spit on Gandhiji too. I spit & piss on them!

Gandhiji was a hero to the likes of Albert Einstien, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Time Magazine, the Nobel Panel, the whole World! Is to almost a Billion Indians & to the likes of Barack Obama.
Can you even hope to compare??? Name one spitter with the same credentials please?

3. :-) You're not right-wing yes. And I'm from Mars.

4. Nahi. Insaaf sab ke liye hota hai.
How has the Congress come into this conversation??? But since you ask, here is a read anyway. Everything that has gone wrong they're to blame for sure! But everything that has gone right, they must get credit for as well! Remember Insaaf? :-)

1conoclast said...

Kislay,

Since you're not returning, I must ask you here...

In # 7 you say that to you Hinduism & Indianness are the same thing to you.
So if someone talks of India's interest, he's talking about Hindu interest, right?

1conoclast said...

manish...

One more thing:

What's the guarantee that when I do give you a link, you will not dismiss it saying this guy is a Communist/Kangressi/Christian etc. etc. etc.?

Kislay said...

@1con
It took me quite some time to arrive at this . I did not jump to any conclusion . And I did get your analogy . And the people who have been deracinated are Pandits , that is why the name . I know there were other Hindus , but quite a few of them converted over time .

Kislay said...

@1con
And I said it is , more or less the same thing , but the country still comes first . Fortunately my religion teaches me to think of the Motherland before anything .

1conoclast said...

Kislay,

(i) Did they Kislay? May I ask for some numbers, facts & figures?
And I suppose the cause of the Kashmiri Pandit is not dear to Dr. Karan Singh, to the Nehru-Gandhi clan & other Kashmiris? Are they not driven by the cause? I mean everyone in this country seems to have emotional attachments to their so-called roots. Why are they an exception?

(ii) I think you'll find that most religions will teach you that.

This concept of motherland is what is misused by the 2 senas. Who defines how large or small the motherland is?

And if to you it's the same thing, then every single step that Dr. Manmohan Singh & his Govt. & his party take for the benefit of the country, should mean a benefit for Hinduism?

If they want social equality in India, which will benefit India as you'll agree, and they help uplift the poorer, more backward sections in our society, that too should translate into a benefit for Hinduism, right?


Without beating around the bush Kislay, do answer me this.

manish said...

@1con...."You have to be fair & just. And that entails not hiding the truth, giving credit where it's due, even if it's the Congress that you dislike. Don't hide facts. Be fair & just. Build a nation that we can all be proud of! Not the nation 3 right-wing bloggers dream of!"

From here congress came into picture!!You want to praise congress and I want to spit on whole nehru family.

"My initial response too was directed at him. :-)"
When you write something in public people will question it.So be ready to accept it.

"Get me one person( he should be a muslim)" Typo mistake.Read it :- He should not be a muslim because for them their religion comes before motherland. And as put by M J AKbar( I hope you know him. He too is a muslim), that's the reason for their fall. But as usual people blame others for their failure.Here the others are Majority.

manish said...

@1con...Search google or wiki for definition of muslim.

What credentials you have sir to spit on Savarkar???Commenting on blog gives you credit?

And let me tell you one more thing. Dont compare Christians with Muslims. Christians are far better.Far.

"(ii) I think you'll find that most religions will teach you that."
Not all sir.Only one.Do I have to take name??

1conoclast said...

manish...

Going by just 2 things:
a) your kind of education (borne out by your replete with errors grammar) &
b) your stance on your own countrymen (illustrious and commoners alike),
I can safely say that the opinion of your kind of people doesn't matter either to me or to the Nehru family. Haathi chalte hain toh kutte bhownkte hain. Suna toh hoga aapne...?

Sure, if I write something in public, people will question it, but people should know 2 things: (i) That they shold speak when they're spoken to & (ii) Badon ke saamne bachche chup rehte hain

It's OK. I expect people like you to make mistakes. The typo is the smallest of them.
Like I said if you can define Muslim for me (& don't give me Wiki definitions because I don't need them; I want to know what your understanding of the word is!), I will answer your question. Over to you.

I spit on savarkar as an Indian who believes that any attempt to divide Indians along racial lines is treason!!!

I agree with you. Christians are far better than anyone else. I wonder why you guys want to kill, burn, loot & rape such nice people...?

Waise maine theka nahi le rakha hai, aapko dharm sikhane ka, but if are really interested, I suggest you read what all religions say, before you talk. Bina kitaaab padhe baat sirf bewakoof log karte hain!
Maybe Kislay can redirect you to Nimmy's blog, where some of your silly notions can be put to rest.

Now instead of trying to talk too much, please answer my question 1. above, where I asked you for your brilliant, complete & wholesome definition of a Muslim.

manish said...

I missed "not" and you came to my education :O
Anyways.Haathi chalte hain toh kutte bhownkte hain.

Well.My stance does matter to you and that's why you got provoked so much.lol

Your are putting your points on blog.How many will you stop sir??Bacha kaun hai aur baap kaun hai yeh to pata chalta hi rehta hai.

Who is talking too much can be seen easily by lengths of post :)

manish said...

Any attempt to divide indians based on any line is treason and hence I am left wondering why you hate only BJP.Congress and any other damn party is in same boat.

I dint kill any muslim or christian and neither i will.For me humanity is the best religion.I hate preacher of any religion. Whether he is a hindu, muslim, sikh jain or christian.I hate shahi imam as much as i hate praveen tagodia.

manish said...

Why christian got raped or killed also have some reasons. Now you might think I hate Christians too. But you have always been wrong and have a narrow thinking.Cant help it.

Hinduism says "Vasudev Kutumbakam". Not a single other religion!!.Sahi kaha aapne "Bina kitaaab padhe baat sirf bewakoof log karte hain".
Muslims have attacked other countries to expand their religion(Hope you are educated well enough to know History).Aise hi thode 2nd largest religion ho gaya.12 bache paida karo allah ke naam pe or forcibly convert others.Christians have other way of doing.They provide food shelter to poor and ask them to convert.

1conoclast said...

manish,

1. It wasn't only because of your missing "not". It was your overall lack of correct grammar. It's obvious in all your comments. Not to the untrained eye though. :-)

2. No. I wasn't provoked by your stance at all. If you think this is provoked, you should see me provoked. :-)
I was pissed however by your taking potshots at leaders like Gandhiji & Nehru, who only had India's best interests in mind. That in my eyes, stripped you of all respect!

3. Sir... I don't need to stop anyone anymore. I used to think I needed to but the recent assembly elections have shown me that I don't need to stop anyone (read point # 6. The people are not dumb. Like I've said before, the right-wing in any country, across history, has always lost in the end. And that is how it will happen in India. (Hope you are educated well enough to know History?) ;-)

4. The Congress is not guilty of dividing anyone. That is why it has people from all walks of life in it's ranks. All castes, all religions, even other nationalities! The Congress seeks to unite not divide.
Anything to the contrary is only an accusation made in order to stop them from uplifting the poor downtrodden. It is propaganda used to undermine their humungous social & political standing. The way you were trying to undermine Gandhiji & Nehru.

5. Thank God you didn't kill anyone. But you did try & justify the killings to IHM (& try to justify nun-raping to me here)! And that is only one stop before murder! You're pretty close sir!
I'm glad you hate all religious extremists equally. That is the only thing we have in common.

6. Did I ever ask on this forum, "Why KP got killed & driven out also have some reasons. Now you might think I hate KP's too. But you have always been wrong and have a narrow thinking.Cant help it."???
That should tell you how disgusting your stance on nuns & Christians raping/killing is!!!

7. Forget about reading the religious books, you don't even read blog comments properly! If you did, you'd have seen that in a response to Kislay, I pointed out to him that Hinduism too has had major evangelists viz., Adi Shankara, Swami Dayananda, Vivekananda & Swami Prabhupada (in the US).

Just because a ruler who happens to be Muslim attacks a country & evangelises, doesn't make his intent evangelism. His intent remains conquest. People with vested interests will try & portray him as a sword-weilding evangelists.

2nd largest religion hone ke aur bhi karan ho sakte hain. Unpe ghaur kariye. Such as the very religion being attractive?

85 Million Hindus from a once primarily Buddhist nation, pe bhi ghaur kariye.

I don't expect you to know any of this. Like I said your education, intellect & exposure can hardly be called all that!

PS: I write long posts, because I can. I have the knowledge & the skill. Now I know how much you must be struggling. :-)

Merry Christmas chief! :-)

1conoclast said...

manish...

PPS: You STILL don't have a response to my question # 1. Where is your definition that will enlighten me?? :-)

Is it going to come at all? Or are you just another empty talker? akela chana, baaje ghana? :-)

Kislay said...

// Did they Kislay? May I ask for some numbers, facts & figures?

I do not have any , and I am not ashamed to admit it . I read it on Wiki or someplace else . But the one fact that I do know for sure is about the Kashmiri Pandits . And now it seems that it was a mistake on my part to raise this issue . I have absolutely no idea why the hell are you twisting this simple fact to suit your agenda, whatever that is . Are you denying the death of thousands of Pandits and the displacement of lakhs of them ?


// I think you'll find that most religions will teach you that. This concept of motherland is what is misused by the 2 senas. Who defines how large or small the motherland is?

Mine does . Three cheers for that . Don't care 2 hoots about the definition or extent of it . India IS my motherland,my fatherland and my holyland ! Everything starts and ends here for me .

// And if to you it's the same thing, then every single step that Dr. Manmohan Singh & his Govt. & his party take for the benefit of the country, should mean a benefit for Hinduism? If they want social equality in India, which will benefit India as you'll agree, and they help uplift the poorer, more backward sections in our society, that too should translate into a benefit for Hinduism, right?

Again trying to twist my words, give it a new meaning . More or less the same thing is what I said . I clearly stated that my country still comes first . And I can not possibly fathom your train of thought here . Have I suggested that any government should not work for the up liftment of the poor or for social equality ? I seriously cannot get what you are driving at . And statistically speaking , if the government does whatever you said , it will benefit Hindus for sure , amongst the others , because the majority population is Hindu . And that IS a fact , not a fabrication by your favourite political party .


// Without beating around the bush Kislay, do answer me this

I have tried to answer this without beating about the bush as you said . But I know for sure , as I know the sun is going to rise tomorrow from the East , that it is going to come back and bite me in the ass , in some astonishingly new mind-boggling fashion . I know I shall be rained by even more "concrete" facts and figures to support what you say , and to disparage my own . But what the hell , you can't help being you and I can say the same for myself .

manish said...

@1con.
1.Please help me in improving grammar Mr. Trained Eyes. Btw Is speaking good english a standard for person's knowledge? Answer in Yes/No

2.You were dude.You were.
Don't compare Nehru with Gandhiji.It was mere Nehru's self which divided country.
No one gives a damn about your respect.What respect you people get all over world shows everything.

3.Even if you need to stop, you can't stop :D.Remember "Baap baap hota hai beta beta".

Not everywhere, only in India.The secular India.Recently in Australia, government did not allow a mosque construction.Reason Very obvious!!

4.You are a blind supporter of congress.You can't see their failure. Recently congress big shots wanted all the CM's to follow Modi(Of course in industrial growth)
I never undermine Gandhiji.

5.I can never kill people just because he belongs to other religion.You don't hate all religious extremists equally. Since you have justified attacks on other country in point.

6.As Kislay said, you are good in twisting.You don't deserve my answer on this.

7. I don't have to read your comments properly because I know very well your purpose.
Oh God.One ruler!! All those bastards had only one purpose.All of them.That only shows how good is their self-claimed "ATTRACTIVE" religion.

Ji nahi.Two reasons i told you.There are many more.(Of course, being attractive is not one of them}Marry 3-4 women and keep producing babies. Why your religion allows you to marry cousins too is a factor. This was needed initially when people started practicing Islam.To get as many as Islam followers.

manish said...

First you blamed me for writing long posts. Now you accepted who writes long posts.lol.

Thuk ke chatna janta hai na.That is precisely what you did here.
"Now instead of trying to talk too much"
"PS: I write long posts, because I can. I have the knowledge & the skill."

PS: No wishes for you.Will wish you Happy Eid when the time comes :D

1conoclast said...

No Kislay.

I have never for a moment doubted your intent, your intellect or your rectitude. I've only been concerned at someone with your potential going over to the dark side, if I may put it that way. You do seem slightly more influenced by right-wing thought than you are by moderate thought. I may be wrong here.
I am just trying to ensure that an intelligent, tolerant, secular soul stays that way & isn't corrupted.
You will probably ask me not to be patronizing & stop trying to salvage your soul, as you have earlier. Trust me, that is not my intent.
You are a brother, a Human brother first, a World Citizen second & an Indian brother third; everything else (North Indian, Male, Hindu, Brahmin, Muslim etc. etc.) is totally insignificant after these three brotherhoods, in that order (to me!).

1. You made no mistake by raising the issue. It's an issue that needs attention. And bravo for doing that.

2. I've hinted at this above, but let me put the poser to you again. Think about it.
Is the motherland UP/Bihar/Maharashtra/Vidharbha/Punjab/etc.? To some it obviously is!
To some it is India!
To some it is all of Mother Earth!

Again, who defines how small or big the motherland is supposed to be?

And what is the significance of Karmbhoomi in all this motherland talk?

Just some questions for you to think about.

3. The intent wasn't to twist your words. The intent was again to get you to use your excellent mind.
If Hindu interest is the same thing as Indian interest, then anything for India, whether it's Liberalisation, Socialist Capitalism, Reservations to uplift our poorer bretheren, Nuclear Deals, Highways, Rural Employment Schemes, everything will work in the long-term interest of Hindus. And not just Hindus. All Indians.

Lastly, get rid of the assumption that any Indian puts his religion above his nation. There are exceptions to this rule, but like you've mentioned in your post above, they're from all faiths, not just one.

What do you think about this sunrise? :-)

1conoclast said...

manish... :-)

1. I would be the last person who'd want to help you. I want people like you to continue to wallow in sub-mediocrity. So that when people interact with you, they walk away filled with contempt instead of respect! :-)
No; but you fail on both counts! English & Knowledge!!!

2. You childlike insistence won't make it so. :-)
It was shameless people like jinnah that wanted & caused the divide. Why blame Nehru? Political propaganda again..? ;-)

If you knew me in person, you would crave my respect & company. Fortunately for me, we haven't met & I won't feel obliged. :-)
As for your "you people" comment, I don't know what you mean, but knowing the kind of upbringing & exposure you've had, I presume you mean Muslims. Well... consider this:

(i) Gandhiji respected Muslims & their religion.
(ii) The erstwhile League of Nations had the Aga Khan as their President.
(iii) Even if you decide to talk sheer numbers, there are about 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world, of which a certian %age shares mutual respect. I'd say at least 50% of India's 85 Million Hindus respect Muslims & their religion. As do a large %age of Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians etc. etc.
In sheer number terms you will find that if you hold a vote, most people around the World will say that they respect Muslims & their religion.
Kiran Rao does. Gauri Khan does. Hrithik Roshan does. Rupa Farooque Shaikh does. Ratna Pathak Shah does. Shahid & Pankaj Kapur do. You want more names???

Beta jab nahi jeet sakte toh kyun lad rahe ho??? Do something you're actually good at; 'cause you suck at this!!! :-)

3. ???

The nazis were right-wing. They lost.
The pakis were right-wing too. They're all but finished.
You will lose too. And like I said, your downhill journey has already begun.

4. Do you have a link to a news article as proof? ya sirf bak rahe ho roz ki tarah?

5. Your writing is becoming more & more incoherent. What have I justified & where?

6. LOLOLOLOL!!! :-D
sach bol na beta... jawaab nahi hai na? mooh bandh ho gaya na?
LOLOLOL!!!

7. You don't know anything, let alone my purpose! LOL! My only purpose is to get guys like you to distinguish between truth & lies.

Again... your childlike insistence & obduracy will not make it so.
The truth is something else. The Brits, the French & the Portugese came to India for our wealth, not because they wanted to spread their religion.
Similarly the Turks etc., came to India for her wealth, not to spread their religion.
In olden times, people often followed the religion of the king. The king used to use his wealth & reach to promote his religion. Like Ashoka promoted Buddhism.
But you are blind to such facts. You are so full of hate (because of your third-rate education & upbringing) that you can't see the parallels.
It's my job of course to undo the grevious wrongs that were done to your mentality. I hope to succeed.

How many wives did Lord Krishna have?
How many did Pandu have?
How many did Arjun have?
How many did Bimbisara have?
How many did Ashoka have?
How many husbands did Draupadi have?

Until Raja Rammohun Roy came along, polygamy was a practise peacefully followed in Hinduism.

Among South Indian Hindus, not only do cousins marry each other, but also the maternal uncle has the first right (to marriage) over his neice.

Is this being done till today to get as many Hindu followers?

WHY are you trying to argue with me manish? You know by know (as does every other reader of this blog) that you are just not good enough! You lack the knowledge, you consistently AVOID answering the questions I'm repeatedly asking you! Why are you embarassing yourself like this???
_______________

Can you tell me where I referred to your writing long posts?

phir wahi baat...? mooh kholna bina saboot? zyada mooh kholne se kya hota hai, maaloom hai na?

Re: to PS: I expect nothing better from your small minded upbringing & education. We are a young, educated, exposed breed of Indians that celebrate all festivals, & wish everyone equally. We are glad to be superior to you. One day soon people like us will be in top ranking Global & Indian positions, maybe even in Govt., and small-minded people like you will look up to us & dream... kaash...

Have a good day! :-)

manish said...

@1con..
1.You can't help because you are baseless.There is nothing to help.You just want to divert form the topic.
And people will go away after they talk to me.but you just tell your name and see how much respect you get.lol

2.You have propaganda not me.Nehru had hand in partition but you can't accept it or may be you don't know.Read "Blunder of partition". Hope it would clarify.

I can also say that nut I am far more modest than you.lol

You assumed it right.Your posts define you. Though you try to hide your identity.Poor you.

Even i have Muslim friends.But then they are far different from you.For them their country comes first then religion.
You people have got such a reputation that you will never get respect.

3.Forget about my downhill journey.Yours had started when you were born.Try to Digest it and then puke.

4.Beta blogging se bahar aao.I don't care for your views so don't expect me to get any links.If you ever have read any newspaper, you would have noticed that news.

5. First you come to know truth boss then teach others.Forcible conversion was done by muslims not brits etc etc.Why the hell you are dragging them or trying to again divert???

Like Ashoka promoted Buddhism but never forced any one.I hope your education tells you what is "forced".

who all had how many wives is put you by to justify some stupid practices by your religion. If some people had more than one wife that does not mean Hindu religion supports polygamy. Got it??Now I am seeing your facts.lol.

Hinduism never asked for followers.I am not here to prove my points to others but you are.And you are trying very hard.I appreciate your efforts.

7. You get embarrassed by yourself(name religion upbringing) not me.I can see now that i have hit at correct point.lol

manish said...

"Can you tell me where I referred to your writing long posts?"

Beta scroll upwards and try to read your posts.I don't talking rubbish.Unlike you.

"We are a young, educated, exposed breed of Indians that celebrate all festivals, & wish everyone equally."hehehe.hahaha.
"We are glad to be superior to you."Here comes the typical muslim.Which define muslim.

"One day soon people like us will be in top ranking Global & Indian positions, maybe even in Govt., and small-minded people like you will look up to us & dream... kaash..."
Abhi to tu kar raha hai yeh dreaming.And you will keep dreaming.Aamin

1conoclast said...

manish...

:-)))))))

1. Now I'm really enjoying myself. You're bristling under the surface & have nothing left.
First you had no definitions when you were asked, then you avoided answering questions, now you have nothing left to say. You're just typing out empty words & sentences, devoid of content, points etc.
You're on the defensive. You're in retreat.
Like I said, you can't win. You can't stand upto the logic of a random blogger, what'll you achieve in the political scenario???
I'm happy at your utterly hapless response. Good, I'm liking this! :-)

And oh... you only need to meet me once to know that you will have your pants charmed off. I feel the love & respect around me. Like I've said before, ants like you don't matter. They're meant to be sprayed on.

2. Whatever you've been reading is propaganda. What exzctly is this "blunder of partition" that you're talking about? Google doesn't seem to have heard of it, in case it's a book.
By the way, why was advani praising jinnah, the person educated, aware Indians consider responsible for partition.

Modesty is the refuge of the underprivileged. :-)

I don't hide my so-called "identity". Any blog/comment reader is well aware of this "identity". Kislay, who's blog you're on is aware. You don't know because you're blind. Poor YOU! ;-)

So you're avoiding the names I mentioned huh? Don't want to argue facts? Just want to sound like a stuck record? Be my guest.
I don't think you get it.... No one craves your respect. You're a germ in a toilet bowl. You will be sprayed upon.

3. Refer to what I said in # 1 above. You have nothing left to say. No points to offer. No logical argument. Now all you have is venom against me. How's that going to win you an argument? Loser! LOL! :-D

4. Beta... kaun sa paper parhte ho? panchjanya saptahik? vikas? saamna? LOLOL!!!
I read the Indian Express. Again if you had paid any attention you'd have known that 50% of the links I provide as proof are news items from the IE.
But, Oops! I forgot your visually challenged status! Is it even visual or is the problem with the junk that rests behind your eyes???

5. Dekho bhai... pehle tum yeh spasth kar do ke Bodh Dharm jo Patliputra se Khandahar tak, aur Leh se Sanchi aur Ajanta/Ellora tak phaila hua thha, usko kisne ghayab kar diya??? Pusyamitra Sunga kaun thha? Pir aage baat karenge, theek hai?
The Turk & the Brit invaders can wait.
Thoda ja ke parh lo. Sirf yahaan khade reh ke bakte rehne se, tumhare samanya gyan mein kuch badhotri nahi hogi... :-)

6. I guess you still don't have an answer. That's OK. I will take it as your admission of defeat.

7. So Lord Krishna having multiple wives is not a stupid practise?
But in one poor religion which is the target of dirty hindutvis like you, it's a stupid practise?
Very fair & upright of you! LOL! :-D
You're on very thin ice. Your arguments are all failing. You're at the brink. You're going over the edge anytime now... going... going... gone! Boo!

I've said before that you're opening you're mouth without knowing anything. You've hit at no correct points.
Let me tell you something. In primarily patriarchal India, a child is known by his father's set of beliefs. My father (apart from being ex-Indian Army) was a devout, Hanuman worshipping Hindu. He was thrilled to bits when I was born on a Tuesday (it being his day of worship). By that logic I am Hindu. It's just that I'm not an illiterate, semi-educated, biased, blot on the name of Hinduism like you. I'm the reason a Hindu will feel pride, get love, respect & international recognition. Not HMT's like you.

manish said...

1. You have nothing to talk about sir. I can see your points and facts. Lord Krishna had multiple wives and hence Hinduism supports polygamy. Hats off to you SIR

Actually you can't take me ripping all your all points and that's why this comments(in bold. As if it makes your comment more impressive) "WHY are you trying to argue with me manish?"

Talk facts sir not bullshit.

2. Yeah.Blunder of partition is a book. Ask people who were their at the time of partition and not your google God.

Ab yeh advani kahan se aa gaya?? I will repeat again. I am not Advani/BJP supporter(if talking in support of Hindus makes me that!!)

But I will answer you. Jinnah believed Hindus and Muslims can't stay together. He was damn right.
Don't blame Hindus for that Mr. Fact Seeker. Blame Muslim as for them brotherhood and religion comes first than anything else.

Keep this simple thing in mind. If you can kill, be ready for getting killed.You don't have to BJP supporter to reply.

Anti-sikh riots in 84 and Gujarat riots were supported by government but they were initiated by public. Half of the damage was done before police could act.

1 muslim kid shoot ho gaya kashmir mein to Shaurya movie badn gayi.Aaj tak kabhi koi movie bani hai kashmir pandits pe??We have problem on this.

3. Refer point 1 Mr Facts Seeker.

4. Change your newspaper beta. That news came in headlines!!. If you, visually enabled guy,could not notice it, I don't give a Fuck.

5. Lagta hai yahan khade ho ke bakne se tere samanya gyan mein kafi badhotri ho gayi.
Bodh Dharam famous hua.It does not mean yeh ghar ghar mein sivikar kar liya tha.

Baat Islam and Hinduism ki hui thi.Is fact seeker ne jawab diye bine bhod dharam le aaya.Why the hell then you [b]beg[/b] for answers

6. You take whatever you want I don't give a Fuck.

7.As said in point 1 dumb ass Hinduism does not support polygamy.Hindi mein translate karon kya.And also what made you think I support Lord Krishna having multiple wives :O

Your facts and your analogy.Take a bow guys!!

Apne baap ka naam kyn le raha hai???Apni aukat nahi hai kya kuch??????Tu Hindu hai ya kuch aur, koi fark padta hai kya??

[b]I am neither Hindu nor Muslim.[/]

manish said...

"(i) That they shold speak when they're spoken to "

I hope you can recognize this.It was written for me. Valid point

But now the preacher himself replies to Vinod Sharma when he is not being adressed(in the latest blog of Kislay).lol.

Facts Angalogy Facts!!!!

1conoclast said...

manish...

Ek toh itne din laga diye jawaab dene me... Kya ho gaya thha? Bahut samay lag gaya jawaab dhoondne mein? :-)

It's great that you replied finally. Everything that I was saying about you, you finally proved with your semi-literate, assumptive & inane commenting.

Watching you suffer utter consternation, watching you write your apopleptic fit of a response is even better then shutting you up!

Read from your first comment down to your last one. And watch how you've gone from calmly uttering semi-nonsense to sputtering total nonsense! Look what being on the side of wrong has brought you down to.

Abhi bhi waqt hai. Achchai ka path tumhara intezar kar raha hai. Chal paro uspar.

sanjaychoudhry said...

Don't waste time with iconoclast. If he is the same dude who used to haunt Mutiny, he is a complete time-waster. He is actually a bigot and tries to wear you down by talking long and talking in circles. He will keep lathering you with his dozens of inane posts till you call it a day. A man with closed mind cannot be reasoned with. He is even objecting to the fact that other Hindus in India are talking about the plight of Kashmiri Hindus!! But he cheers when Muslim bigots burn down the shop of their Hindu neighbours because Saddam Hussain was hanged in Iraq!

sanjaychoudhry said...

"Achchai ka path tumhara intezar kar raha hai."

Yeah. "Achhe" Hindu are those who do not talk about Hindus being killed by Muslim thugs and chased out a state to live in tents. It is amazing the way you address everyone from a high throne.

Kislay said...

@Sanjay
Do not worry . I shall never forget about Kashmiri Pandits . No true patriotic Indian would ever .

indianrealist said...

There is no shame in taking up cudgels on behalf of fellow Hindus who are being culled by Muslim medieval thugs in our own country. They represent the same force which stones girls to death, smashes TV sets, does not allow painting or singing, bombs non-Muslims, executes women for the crime of getting raped and have ten children each to overwhelm and subdue non-Muslims. There is no need to be aplogetic with these thugs and their English-speaking PR consultants here.

This Iconoclast guy is the same chap who left Mutiny after posters there stopping responding to his posts. He is an Islamist whose main job is to engage and challenge non-Muslims who are merely complaining about getting butchered by Neanderthels of his community.

manish said...

@1conoclast...Time is liye lag gaya beta kynki life mein aur bhi kaam hote hain mujhe :D....but alas you wont understand

now after reading your shit, i can safely say you have got nothing to "quote" .....

aur Achai ke raste se kahin aap "Islam" ko to refer nai kar rahe SIR???

manish said...

'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'


'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'


'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'


'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'


'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.' -Prime Minister John Howard, Australia.

I wish we could have a Minister like him!!!

Indyeah said...

I agree. Period.
With every word. Profanity or no profanity.
And yes, also understood the boiling anger, the frame of mind in which you must have written it.

The words the sentiments do not differ from mine. And the anger visible in them gives them more power.

Thank you for this post Kislay.
Will have to dig deeper into your archives to find other such posts.

And Teesta Setalvad sure isnt shining now is she?The hypocrite !

Kislay said...

@Thank you Indyeah
Down with Setalvad and her kind .